Poetics and Poetry Discussion
(1/27/2014 10:58:00 AM)
Lamont wrote to Therrie/Tony:
" Let me tell you something: if you don't think the first three or four lines of Prell isn't more musical and poetic than JC's poem, you are FREAKING crazy. JC's opening sounds like the beginning of a novel:
'I remember lying on Nancy's bed, Nancy on one side, her older sister on the other, sunlight warming our bare legs as I recited my new & remembered thinking, I love women, the way they smell, how they look & feel.'
Pretty banal. Prell's opening is......POETIC. Quotable. And yes, authoritative. But I give it to JC, he's a clever, entertaining writer. I've always admitted that. Nuff said, as its not fair to involve JC in this. -LP"
I really do wish you two would leave me and my poems out of your flame war. Lamont, you're so fuckin' stubborn, I know this is a pointless request. If you see no formal elements being exploited in my plain-voiced poems, you're just exposing your ignorance of modern poetics. Line breaks, imagery, figures of speech and mild alliteration ARE formal devices that heighten any poem's expressiveness. Since the only music you can experience is iambic, you're blind and deaf to anything subtle.
But that's not what I want to say. LAMONT, STOP DEFENDING YOURSELF AGAINST THERRIE/TONY! YOU JUST COME ACROSS AS NEUROTIC, INSECURE, SELF_OBSESSED, AND HALF-CRAZY! LET IT GO! Therrie will get bored talking to himself and go away. I promise!
(1/27/2014 10:53:00 AM)
If that was your ONLY objective, to prove I have no talent, (eyeroll) then you failed miserably. By repeating something foolish over and over again doesn't make it true. My 'bark' and my talent are in sync and just fine. So what have we learned here today?One's 'oinion' is just that....a mere opinion, and it doesn't change a thing. You wasted my time, the forum's time, and your own, if you have a life at all. Which I doubt. Goodbye asshole. You'll think twice before trying this again with anyone else...and certainly Lamont Palmer. -LP
(1/27/2014 10:35:00 AM)
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Not only are you a numb-nuts, but you are THE most boring writer I've ever read. I advise you to stop writing for a year or so, and wrap yourself up in some good contemporary prose writers. Joyce, Hemingway, Poe, Dr. Seuss. Dr. Seuss is German like Acker and yourself. Maybe you'll enjoy him. Your rants are more boring than your poems, and that's saying something.Replies for this message:
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(1/27/2014 6:58:00 AM)
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One of my first poems, when I got back into the art(?) in 2006..
Thank God I’m an Atheist ©
One fine night, in the middle of the day,
two atheists knelt down to pray.
Hymn books opened upside-down,
in Top Hat n' Tails, and their dressing gown.
The in-verse lyrics from the page,
sung happily with joyous rage.
Two old friends, first meeting each other,
(both my Grandad’s grandson’s sister’s brother.)
With sufficient humility, to make them proud,
in perfect silence, they roared out loud.
“All things dim and dutiful,
all tree cures smate and groll.
All things dense and blunderfull,
what good is a square ball?”
Cursed by the blessing,
and accepted by rejection.
As welcoming as Ebenezer,
(when it’s time to pass the collection.)
Thanking God for their disbelief,
from their heads up to their toes.
And then with Pious reverence,
they did pick each other’s nose.
These two brave cowards stand as one
In truth they are my father’s son.
You students of genealogy,
must unsurely disagree.
For my Grandad’s grandson’s sister’s brother,
Can be none other than…..
p.s.: -(Some students of genealogy,
have been giving me some bother.
They’ve pointed out, without a doubt,
it could also be my brother!)
(1/27/2014 3:58:00 AM)
Read it or don't because anyone that knows me knows I care lots.
Be forewarned this is a pretty long letter along with a reply that is continually suppressed with all other comments pointing out how one man views us being the readers for giving him low marks. I will post his 'Open Letter' first then my last reply since he felt the need to delete all the others.
This letter was copied as a point of reference and nothing more than. Written By BRIAN JOHNSTON.
My apologies to all those poets who think all my poems are poetic garbage and hence in good conscience can vote all my poems down to a 1 or a 0. This letter is not for you.
This letter is for those who envious of my poetry's success in pure malice vote all my poems down to a 1 or a 0. This letter is definitely for you
An open letter to the 1 & 0 Vandals desecrating PH halls…
First let me refer you to my poem ‘You Know Who You Are’ for though it was intended to protest attacks on men and women (and certainly by extension to children of either sex) its comments on molesters of any sort certainly apply to you. For a poet our poems are like children that we give birth to, that contain our DNA. We gird our fledgling poems as best we can with the armor of both logic, music, wisdom, and love against the pain and rancor of a fallen world. We release them as one would a child as well, wishing them the best but knowing that we won’t always be able to protect them. So let me just say, that when you, apparently in a mindless rage (for you are indiscriminate in doing so) downgrade a poem’s popularity to either appease your jealous rage or your lack of intellect, you become rapists at your worst, school yard bullies at your best. How does it feel to know that your efforts are largely ineffectual for the best poets still rise to the top and experience the accolades of their peers in spite of the worst you can do?That must suck huh?Make you mad?I certainly hope so!
So in addition to being rapists of defenseless poems, it appears to me that you must also be half-witted cowards. You hide behind the anonymity of ones and zeros (what a disappointment if you should all turnout to be computer programmers, there is always a place for humor even if you are to dumb to understand it) . You lack the courage to discuss your problems with a poem or a poet on its or his merits even though you could do this if you wanted in most cases, which of course means that you must have the spine of a jellyfish and the brains of a banana slug. Are you beginning to think that I don’t like you much?Well just review the last two line of my poem ‘You Know Who You Are’ and perhaps that will make it clear to you how I feel, assuming you can read of course.
Yes, you have a modicum of power to upset me, kind of like when I accidentally step on used gum. But I do not know your life, the abuse you’ve had to live through yourself. For that I am truly sorry. I pity you and pray for your soul. It can’t be easy being you!
Now My reply from MEROV TACHGOVIRIAN
Trash them or vote for them based on how the reader sees or feels about their work?If I think a movie is pretty bad I'm not going to vote it average I am going to give it the score I feel it deserves.
If I had a bad experience at a restaurant am I going to give it 5 stars or 1?
Can you imagine if every actor, actress, restaurant owner, chef or writer whined as much as you do about their ratings or peoples opinions of their work where those people would be?
No, they realize something that you DO NOT. PEOPLES OPINIONS DON'T REALLY MATTER! But if you can learn something from it then that is good as well. Live and learn right?
Can you imagine if actors, actresses, restaurant owners, chefs and writers or anyone that could be critiqued and judged based on their performance threw the temper tantrum you threw?Not only would the media totally eat you up and spit you out but your mental state of mind would come under fire, because who really says the things you said in your open letter and can call themselves sane or even a Christian for that matter?
So the media not based on what they do but 'YOUR WORDS' and reactions to anyone giving you low marks would never let you live it down. So why should anyone at PH?Something to think about if you actually plan on going anywhere 'successful' with your writing.
No, I think the people at PH are a little more forgiving then the media abroad. So maybe it is a good thing for you that you truly are not successful at writing yet Brian?
As well your apology isn't sincere and can be likened to a 'loaded question' but in the form of a statement.
I don't placate to your emotional state Brian, so there is no need for humility when one is honest, especially with the amount of NON-humble words that you put up on the screen.
So let's stick the actual subject matter.
Why did you write the open letter?
Because you felt people or a person was trying to destroy your scores by voting you down. Do you really believe there is some conspiracy to destroy you as a poet?Or that you are the only one that has ever been given a low score by me or anyone else?
What did your open letter consist of?
You consistently trying to insult the people or a person that gave you low scores while explaining that your poems are your children and that those that give low scores are raping your defenseless children.
Do you realize how crazy that sounds?That because a person or persons gave you a low rating they are just foul creatures that lurk within the halls of PH desecrating other peoples works?
More like exactly for the reasons I gave. Now I can't speak for anyone else on why they gave you a low rating on anything without saying anything other then they wanted to avoid interactions like this one.
As well if half as many people that you claim gave you 10's or 5+ on your work would it not reflect so?
Pretty sure if 2 people gave you 10's and 1 person gave you a 1 your score would be scaled accordingly and then maybe you wouldn't be overreacting towards the people that gave the low marks to begin with.
You realize I DID NOT need to come forward and say anything at all and you would have continued ranting and raving about whoever the person or people are giving you low marks, While assuming all the people that give low marks are just rapists of defenseless works and horrible people that should be wiped from the face of the earth because they have SO much malice in their hearts and love to bring people low that feel they have a place at the top.
What If I spit the food my server gave to me a 5 Star restaurant into a napkin and said this is absolutely awful I want to order something else. Can you imagine the chef coming out to confront me in a rage calling me the rapist of his defenseless meal that he cooked for me to eat?
Maybe now you see how ridiculous you sound?
If I too was shown how utterly absurd I sounded in making all the statements I made to people that have the right to vote however they feel. I also would want to retreat into private conversation.
You want to appeal to the readers of PH and come across as one that is emotionally stable and quite sound. But I feel for you that the damage is done. You said what you said and no matter how you try to give a 'Sincere Apology'
You in your anger said some pretty harsh things to those people that gave you low scores because I couldn't have been the only one I am just the only one that came forward.
Now do I find what you said insulting to me?Not so much, I actually found it quite entertaining that anyone that tries to present themselves as this God fearing, God loving, individual would say even a fraction of what you said while feeling all along justified because some people didn't like your work.
You asked what does someone get out of giving a low score or saying a poem is just garbage.
I ask what does someone get out of giving a high score or saying a poem is great?
Now if it is for someone's own personal satisfaction to say something positive or negative then is it really about the person commenting and not about the person they are commenting?
I don't get anything out of telling you what I think nor does anyone else. I gave you what you wanted which was an explanation. Anyone else along with myself don't need to give explanations but sometimes we do.
Take one of the other poet's on PH today I gave them a 10 and even commented their page. Why?Because it was a brilliant piece and I rated it as such. Half I rate and just don't say anything unless I feel it's worth saying something about.
I'd tell you to grow up Brian but I fear that would put you in your grave seeing that you are already 71.
So act like a 71 year old man and not a child that can't handle criticism and feel as though they are being singled out of EVERYONE on PH and being picked on. Learn to take the positive with the negative without throwing tantrums.
For the many other poet's who have been saddened and mystified as to why someone would come in and trash their ratings. Ask yourselves are we the readers really trashing your poems when you put them out to be criticized no matter how positive or negative the criticism may be?My suggestion to all the saddened and perplexed individuals that feel as though they are being attacked. You aren't or maybe you actually are. Either way if you can't handle negative comments as well as you do your praise maybe you shouldn't post anything.
People like me don't do it just to do it if we ever do it it's because we just really don't like your work or that particular poem or maybe we really enjoy your work or a particular piece for whatever the reason is.
Maybe not everyone wants to come out and say I didn't or I really do like your poem for this reason or these reasons. But for those that are getting lowly ranked poems within the PH rating system that give you a 5 or below.
Well you can look at your lowly ranked poems and put them in the forums and ask people to critique it and see where people might like certain parts or not really like any parts. BUT be willing to have your work criticized and judged harshly just as much as you should be willing to embrace the pain of truth no matter how ugly or beautiful it may be.
Remember that it is the painful experiences in life that have either made you or broken you. Let anything anyone says be a motivating force to push you to go further then you ever believed you were capable of don't let others words drag you down cause they too will have their day when they are judged just as harshly or kindly as they dish out.
Learn from Brian now to NOT take these things and turn them into personal attacks but to see that they are what they are... People just voting how the feel about a poem and if they want to leave a comment they will.
Did you in all of your intelligence ever stop to consider that what if I send out a positive open letter asking why I have been given low scores that you might have gotten some constructive feedback from more people other than myself?
I think your tone and attitude could have dictated much of what took place. But maybe it didn't?Maybe it was going to unravel in this manner all along. BUT that is really besides the point isn't it?
How about acting like a man and asking for some positive feedback rather than insulting anyone that has given your poems a low rating. That would have been the civilized thing to do for a Christian as yourself would it not?
As for me Brian we don't need to have any more private chats or letters nor do we need to be friends, Though I'm not your enemy as I have said before. But I call things how I see them and if you can't handle the truth then don't ask the question
(1/27/2014 1:49:00 AM)
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Tony Maletto Male,56, United States (1/27/2014 12: 07: 00 AM)
Just to settle some issues and establish where Palmer really stands in terms of nubs vs. wings, we have a side by side critique, well, sorry top and bottom with Lamont Palmer on the bottom(his preferred position, so we've been told)
I remember lying
on Nancy’s bed,
Nancy on one side,
her older sister
on the other, sunlight
warming our bare legs
as I recited my new poem
& I remember thinking
I love women, the way
they smell, how they look
& feel, the nightclub
of my mind quiet for once,
the poem describing
a sentient rock, a hermit
who sealed up the entrance
to his cave, leaving a slit
through which the villagers
pushed his food.
Allan Prell's Voice
Barbed wire rousings and puckish grins:
Morning erupted and deepened guffaws.
Before noon could calm the nerves,
An audience of listeners is
Held like love. That speech, that tenor:
A liberal sun enters daily
Into the room of your life, in the car
Of your thoughts, waking all
Moribund impressions that
Lay like roadkill at the entrance of ears.
(I loved the way he screamed Baltimore;
Baltimore, in the shriek of microphones;
It was his heart by the misty harbor) .
I gave myself to the show,9 to 12,
To AM radio's weakening sprawl,
To a demi-god of shrillness who
Touched airwaves and subsisted on them,
Till night came crashing loudly,
Fifty thousand watts of doom,
Driving his tongue from city to city.
Let's start by comparing the word count required to present a message and the choice of words. J.C.'s poem uses words sparingly, but very effectively. We show a count of around seventy or so words vs. LP's count of over one hundred and twenty words. In J.C.'s poem there is also a complete avoidance of any cliches, while on the other hand LP's poem limps along heavily loaded with almost screeching cliches such as " Into the room of your life, in the car of your thoughts" . One comes to a screeching halt here and is not able to pick up on smooth momentum from there on. Since one must read on, LP's poem tries to pick up wind again but is immediately jarred by a worse and both eye and ear splitting combination of words and imagery: " Lay like roadkill at the entrance of ears. (I loved the way he screamed Baltimore ;) " . This is supposedly a tribute to an artist of sorts(a broadcaster) and no matter how hard one tries, it is impossible to merge the use of the term " roadkill at the entrance of ears" with the general sentiment of the poem, and almost as if a child is writing, " I loved the way he screamed Baltimore" is inserted in the most awkward and immature writing style. Then the worst is thrown at the reader at the very end almost to seal the immaturity behind the thoughts: " Driving his tongue from city to city." The imagery of a tongue being driven from city to city or for that matter from anywhere to anywhere is a clear indication of immature writing.
Not knowing Lamont Palmer's age or the length of time he has been writing, one would easily assume that this poem was written by a teenager in his first or second year of attempting poetry. When one is made aware of the the fact that Lamont Palmer is 52 years old and has been " writing" since he was 16 years old(according to bios he has produced) , then the disappointment is, understandably, great. All in all a very immature poem and certainly not one that a long term, mature " poet" would ever produce. As far as we are concerned, he posted this poem with great pride and added no qualifications, until some very observant critics began to tear it apart. At that time he began to state that it was never meant for public consumption! ?
Moving on to Jefferson Carter's poem. The number of themes and the imagery produced with a total lack of cliches and extremely well distilled writing, is indicative a of a mature writing style. J.C.'s ability to evoke an emotional response from the reader, without excessive use of words is nothing short of genius. The expression: " Less is more" is exemplified in this poem. The imagery is natural, not forced, one's mind provides further details to create the complete imagery, unlike Lamont Palmer's poem in which the reader is almost excluded as if the poet wrote the poem for himself! In comparison, Lamont Palmer's poem is heavy in excessively trying to fill in every detail, leaving no room for the reader to participate. It is almost dictatorial in style, whereas J.C.'s Poem is flexible and liberal in it's allowing the reader to not only participate, but also " add to the painting" .
On the one hand, J.C.'s poem, we have a relatively small poem and yet a gem is created, while on the other hand, Lamont Palmer's poem struggles along heavily loaded and excessively descriptive with the use of very crass imagery that does nothing but turn it into an ear splitting and eye cringing experience. With Lamont Palmer's poem one has to get over three major hurdles, that I " jumped" over for the sole reason of getting to the end as soon as possible. With J.C.'s poem one is left wanting more.
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Lamont Palmer (1/27/2014 1: 42: 00 AM) Post reply | Delete this message
Let me tell you something: if you don't think the first three or four lines of ' Prell' isn't more musical and poetic than JC's poem, you are FREAKING crazy. JC's opening sounds like the beginning of a novel:
'I remember lying on Nancy's bed, Nancy on one side, her older sister on the other, sunlight warming our bare legs as I recited my new & remembered thinking, I love women, the way they smell, how they look & feel.'
Pretty banal.Actually it sounds like a FB post, quite frankly, and not even a novel. Prell's opening is......POETIC. Quotable. And yes, authoritative. But I give it to JC, he's a clever, entertaining writer. I've always admitted that. Nuff said. -LP
(1/27/2014 12:11:00 AM)
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To add: You also said the poem seemed to be written only for the poet, like in a private language, I suppose you meant. That also contradicts your claim thats its cliched. A poem written in a private language would not be a cliched poem, because cliches are familiar, over-used language; written by poets who desperately want to connect.
What you're struggling to say is my poem seems detached and abstract and not for the public. But that begs the question, why didn't Prell dismiss it as 'strange'?Or bad?Or not interesting?What did he find appealing about it, other than the title?Surely there must be something about it he liked. He would've stuck any old poem in his book MERELY because it was about him?You get stoooopider and stoooooopider. (smile) . -LPReplies for this message:
(1/27/2014 1:10:00 AM)
I met you blow for blow. For every dumb thing you posted, I posted an opinion to absolutely refute you. All you proved today is, I have a wrath. But everyone does. So what else is new?You wasted your ... more
(1/27/2014 1:06:00 AM)
And how have you shown that about my talent?By posting a prose poem and giving a botched, mindless 'critique'?LP
(1/27/2014 1:03:00 AM)
And who in the forum is that important?You got beat back and thats it. Stop trying to couch your foolishness in moral terms. You're a loser, no matter your 'motivation'. I've seen other poets attacked ... more
(1/27/2014 12:43:00 AM)
Anyway, the ass using an alias, calling ... more
(1/27/2014 12:36:00 AM)
Nope. I'm perfectly rational. And I KNOW ... more
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- Lamont Palmer (1/27/2014 1:10:00 AM) Post reply
(1/26/2014 11:53:00 PM)
' Unlike Lamont Palmer's poem in which the reader is almost excluded as if the poet wrote the poem for himself! In comparison, Lamont Palmer's poem is heavy in excessively trying to fill in every detail, leaving no room for the reader to participate. It is almost dictatorial in style, whereas J.C.'s Poem is flexible and liberal in it's allowing the reader to not only participate, but also " add to the painting' - Tony/Therrie/Whoever
You have described here (again unwittingly because you're ignorant of literary theory) why prose has always been more popular than poetry and why people have to be TAUGHT to read and appreciate writing that is metaphorical, allusive and doesn't possess an easy, straightforward syntax. What you call a 'dictatorial' sound, a more intelligent, informed reader would call a sonorous and authoritative sound and of course, a higher diction. And if you say my poem is 'cliched', that means it can't possibly be 'excluding' readers, as you claim later. A cliched poem would be painfully trying to appeal to readers with easy language. If my poem seems to exclude readers, you're trying to say the language is detached and more abstract. A poem can't be cliched, yet exclude readers at the same time. Your analysis is really offbase and full of contradictions; i.e. bullshit. -LP
(1/26/2014 10:06:00 PM)
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(Flexing muscles) . The thrill of victory. Nothing like beating back morons when they need it. And no disrepect to any poets here whose poems got dragged into this. Now if our friendly neighborhood shapeshifter can tell us why he NEEDS an alias. Why such fear of a 'failed' poet?-LP
(1/26/2014 8:25:00 PM)
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' Unlike Lamont Palmer's poem in which the reader is almost excluded as if the poet wrote the poem for himself! In comparison, Lamont Palmer's poem is heavy in excessively trying to fill in every detail, leaving no room for the reader to participate. It is almost dictatorial in style, whereas J.C.'s Poem is flexible and liberal in it's allowing the reader to not only participate, but also " add to the painting'
You have described here (again unwittingly because you're ignorant of literary theory) why prose has always been more popular than poetry and why people have to be taught to read writing that is metaphorical, allusive and doesn't possess an easy, straightforward syntax. Saying my poem is almost 'dictatorial' in style is your ignorant way of saying my poem is sonorous and authoritative in its language. How can it be both 'dictatorial', yet seem to be written by a 14 year old?See how you're tripping yourself up, junior?In other words, even a so-so poem which employs formal technique, has a more authoritative sound than a prose poem.
Nothing's better than debating someone who makes most of your points for you. Now back to this alias thing?Why are you so afraid of me, you keep ducking the question. -LP