Poetics and Poetry Discussion


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  • Allan James Saywell (12/17/2005 4:48:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    i came across this poem at the rubbish dump

    Interview With A poetry Critic
    Do you think poems should be long
    Grunt, bark bark bark bark
    Okay do you think poems should have rules
    Grunt, bark bark bark bark
    Well do you think poems should be written by people from India
    Grunt, bark bark bark bark

    Written by Bark bark bark

    Replies for this message:
    • Michael Shepherd (12/17/2005 5:35:00 PM) Post reply

      and what excellent self-criticism by the poet to throw it there. If all poets had such self-criticism, we might not need critics. But alas...

  • Poetry Hound (12/17/2005 4:27:00 PM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    Nikhil, it is very tempting to satirize you even more. But I won’t do that here. I regret that you are upset by what I’ve said about you, but I don’t think you need to be. In fact, I wish you could laugh at yourself even a little bit. That would be a healthy sign. I’ll tell you what I think is funny, and I’m being serious here. It’s funny that you present yourself as a famous, world-renowned poet when you’re not. It’s funny that you use so many multi-syllabic words in your poems in awkward and inaccurate ways. It’s funny that you write to dignitaries and then brag that their administrative assistants’ generic acknowledgements are tantamount to heaps of praise from the leaders. It’s funny that you ignore or erase all criticism of your poetry whether constructive or satirical. It's funny that you self-publish all your books and act like that's some great accomplishment. In sum, it’s funny that you try to pass yourself off as something you are not, and it’s funny that you show not the slightest bit of humility. I know other people agree with me on this but, for various reasons, they are unwilling to say it publicly.

    Now, I promise I will never hurl insults at you or call you names. But I reserve the right to be critical and I reserve the right to be funny. You assert that I am mainly negative in my comments to people. Well, go look at my backlog of Comments on Poems and Poets and you will see that you are dead wrong about that. I am quite pleased to give praise where it is due, and people here know that when I praise something, it is really what I believe because they know I don’t hesitate to criticize as well.

    As for you Max, I don’t mind you criticizing me or asserting that I have been hounding Nikhil. But what I do mind is you playing the race card and saying that those who criticize Nikhil are somehow being racist. That is beneath you. You’re a pal, but I think you’re wrong on that one. Happy holidays, everyone, including you Nikhil.

    Replies for this message:
    • Max Reif (12/17/2005 6:26:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      I don't know if the racism is conscious, PH, but I feel that Nikhil's Indian-English has something to do with it.

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (12/17/2005 5:19:00 PM) Post reply

      Perhaps 'racist' is a bit harsh but Max did say ' a bit'. Poetryhound your description of Nikhil fits exactly the typical Italian Dottore. Flamboyance, self-aggrandizement..... Shall we include the ... more

    • Mary Nagy (12/17/2005 4:35:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Well.........I'll chime in here with my opinion (if I may) . I think Poetry Hound is definitely one of the 'tougher' critics here. I've told him that he intimidates the heck out of me. I've let him kn ... more

  • Max Reif (12/17/2005 3:39:00 PM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    I do feel the obsession of you guys with Nikhil is clannish, creepy, and a bit racist.

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    • ***** ***** (12/17/2005 7:06:00 PM) Post reply

      Oh bullshit... racism is a last resort accusation when an argument has no place to go. I don´t care where the man comes from, his poetry leaves a lot to be desired and geography doesn´t come into it. ... more

    • Joseph Daly (12/17/2005 5:08:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Max, that is a bit below the belt. Are you suggesting that we should now take race into consideration when we assess other people's work or even the authors themselve? Wither objectivity?

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (12/17/2005 5:00:00 PM) Post reply

      Yes, Max I agree with you. It smacks of the purple horse on the prairie, where all the others are brown. H

  • Michael Shepherd (12/17/2005 3:07:00 PM) Post reply | Read 5 replies

    I think a few unpleasant things need to be said.
    Poemhunter.com is a site where you place your poems in public, for public appreciation, suggestions, and judgment - and not from one 'authority', but from several or many. Put up and shut up.
    If you think comments here are unfair, then message the person privately and ten to one, some useful things will be said.
    Some who post here have no idea how ill-conceived or ill-constructed are their poems, and a little cold water carefully applied is what they need. Relying on one person to do the judging and then squawking 'unfair' gets you no further in your development.
    When this came up the first time a few weeks ago, there was a general response from serious poets here, that Poetry Hound's comments may be painful to the ego, but are considered fair and often lead to improvements in a poem, or at the very least, a more careful look at your own work. So weep, laugh, and get on with your life - and if you want to argue the case, message him.

    I personally strongly deprecate the new facility for removing comment from our home pages. That forwards no-one's progress. A negative comment left in place may always be judged in the context of others' comments.

    Nikhil, I have to say that you have been dealt with more lightly than some would like. You may be a well-received Indian poet in India, but on an international site such as this, your poetry in the eyes of some makes a travesty of the English language, overloading it to the point of meaninglessness. Your so-called 'universal' themes are constantly turned (with some exceptions) to yourself - the theme goes for little.
    I seriously think that you should return to your native language - it would do more useful service at home. And your egocentric publicity invites the making a laughing-stock of you. What's the Hindu word for modesty?

    You are in need of just the judgment and advice that this site offers. I don't for a moment doubt that your heart is in the right place, and that the themes you tackle are worthy ones. But you really need to consider the Oriental wisdom that 'less is more'. It can call out more serious thought and a vision of the outer world beyond your own views.

    So please don't complain that you are badly treated. It's not a nice thing to say, but it is the English language and all its subtle shades of meaning that is being badly treated. If you think that Poetry Hound is your one affliction, it is because several more of us hold back from making the same comments, knowing that you only wish to hear praise and never engage in useful discussion on this Forum about your own poetry or that of others.
    Have you removed the constructive comments from your comments box? There's been no lack of useful advice.

    All poets are thin-skinned in their lonely, difficult, and deeply, deeply valuable activity. All poets need feedback from their peers, not the secretariats of world leaders. All poets wish to enter a greater world, greater with every poem they write, if possible - this is why this splendid site exists.
    And if the Forum seems at times petty, or its participants silly and offensive - remember the famous statement, 'If you see a man talking to himself - join in! ' That's what I try to do.

    Replies for this message:
    • ***** ***** (12/17/2005 6:57:00 PM) Post reply

      I had written a comment with many of the sentiments here earlier but removed it for the same reasons you cite, not wanting to hurt or more significantly not wanting to engage in a lengthy backlash of ... more

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (12/17/2005 4:59:00 PM) Post reply

      Perhaps Nikhil could request not to have comments put on his poems? In dealing with people from India I note a very 'flowery' language, why would it be helpful for a non-Indian critic to pass harsh ... more

    • Allan James Saywell (12/17/2005 4:01:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      we dont need to have poets leave this site we need more poets to arrive so put the hose on the dog and get on with it we need poems from different cultures especially from India and we dont need to d ... more

    • Max Reif (12/17/2005 3:37:00 PM) Post reply

      Well, I just don't think I'm with you he ... more

    • Richard George (12/17/2005 3:17:00 PM) Post reply

      I'm with you on this, Michael. Self-beli ... more

  • Hasan Ali Tokuqin (12/17/2005 2:52:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    This site has many old farts.They are not artfull, they are silly and jaded, mr carter.

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  • Cj Heck (12/17/2005 2:45:00 PM) Post reply

    To all of my friends here at PH, may I suggest an autographed copy of my book, 'Barking Spiders and Other Such Stuff' for any children on your list, ages 3 to...103. It's listed at Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble.com for $9.95 plus shipping, but if you purchase through me ($9.95 per book) , I will send them out with free shipping on Monday, the 19th anywhere in the USA. There's still time before Christmas. Just send me a message and let me know.

    I wish I could do that for you folks elsewhere, but I'm afraid it would cost as much for me to ship it as the price on the book. Please accept my apologies. Hugs to all and Merry Christmas, CJ

  • Hasan Ali Tokuqin (12/17/2005 2:09:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    Poetry Hound, I think you must quit comentting.

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  • Rookie - 74 Points Ernestine Northover (12/17/2005 12:55:00 PM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    I know I'm not the first, but I want to wish everyone on PH a wonderful Christmas and a very 'poem' prosperous New Year. May the Gods look kindly on you and give you many new poetry creations. Have a great time, great food, great wine and great company. Love Ernestine XXX

    Replies for this message:
    • Mary Nagy (12/17/2005 1:18:00 PM) Post reply

      The same to you Ernestine! Keep in touch and get that camera working! :)

    • Declan McHenry (12/17/2005 1:10:00 PM) Post reply

      Ernestine, that's very touching. Thank you. And the same to you too.

    • Joseph Daly (12/17/2005 1:00:00 PM) Post reply

      Right back at you Ernestine, to you and yours.

  • Rookie - 74 Points Poetry Hound (12/17/2005 7:01:00 AM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    The New Yorker is starting to publish poems it bought from Elizabeth Bishop in the early '70s (Bishop died in 1979) . These poems have never seen the light of day. Here's one that's not in the poemhunter collection.

    Breakfast Song

    My love, my saving grace,
    your eyes are awfully blue.
    I kiss your funny face,
    your coffee-flavored mouth.
    Last night I slept with you.
    Today i love you so
    how can I bear to go
    (as soon I must, I know)
    to bed with ugly death
    in that cold, filthy place,
    to sleep there without you,
    without the easy breath
    and nightlong, limblong warmth
    I've grown accustomed to?
    -Nobody wants to die;
    tell me it is a lie!
    But no, I know it's true.
    It's just the common case;
    there's nothing one can do.
    My love, my saving grace,
    your eyes are awfully blue
    early and instant blue.

    Elizabeth Bishop (1973)

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    • Poetry Hound (12/17/2005 10:44:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Okay, okay, not one of her best, you're right, Denis and Shep. I just thought I'd post one that even most Bishop fans haven't seen before. I'll look for a better one.

    • Michael Shepherd (12/17/2005 10:39:00 AM) Post reply

      what fun! Thanks for that. To think that this radiant soul tried to match the succinct wit of Dorothy Parker - kept her head above water for barely two lines - and then drowned without waving! Did the ... more

    • Joseph Daly (12/17/2005 7:22:00 AM) Post reply

      Not one of her best, Hound, but certainly worth posting, if only to show that even great writers can sometimes be reduced to the simplistic in order to express angst.

  • Rookie - 74 Points Gol Mcadam (12/17/2005 6:36:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Hello Folks. I've just posted 'Cassandra', after Sylvia Plath's 'Lady Lazarus'. Any comments would be much appreciated. Thanks. Have a lovely Christmas!

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    • Poetry Hound (12/17/2005 7:31:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      It's a big challenge and risk to write a poem under the influence of Lady Lazarus. But you do a remarkable job, Gol. Your poem is confessional and has an intensity bordering on lunacy. Excellent job.

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